from political and personal to profitable

[F]law School Episode 6: The Corporatization of Drag

Grayce Burns

November 9, 2024

Summary:

In this  two-part episode on the corporatization of drag, hosts, Sam Perri and Pragnya Vella, interview Grayce Burns, a Harvard Law student, to discuss the rising popularity of drag as both a hobby and profession — and as a form of both  personal and political expression.

In Part 1 Grayce explains how corporate control over drag queens is reshaping drag, undermining unique local drag cultures and harming queens who go on popular shows like Drag Race  through  restrictive non-disclosure agreements — or NDAs (as they’re called in the biz) — and meager  pay. Grayce explains how, despite those challenges drag persists as a vibrant form of queer visibility and artistic expression for queer identities.

In Part 2, the conversation continues, as Grayce sheds light on how some queens are pushing back to reclaim the activist roots of drag culture and offers ideas for how we can support local drag performers outside of the Drag Race monopoly.

Editors:

Special thanks to Nandini Kalani, Christina White, and Giovana de Oliveira for production and editing assistance and Nolan Mascarenhas for social media assistance.

Guest Bio:

Grayce Burns is a student at Harvard Law School in the Class of 2025 and a Linthicum, MD native. She’s interested in international litigation and arbitration, and enjoys examining issues at the intersection of law, philosophy, and economics. When the Law School lets her go outside, she enjoys hanging out with her hairless cat, Dr. Benjamin Franklin, and cheering on any and all Maryland sports teams.

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Transcript – Grayce Burns on the Corporatization of Drag 

 (This transcript was created by an automated process and contains errors.)

Beginning of Part 1: 

Sam Perri Hey, welcome to Flaw School, a podcast that explores the flaws in our legal system. I’m one of today’s hosts. I’m Sam and I’m a public defender.

Pragnya Vella And I’m Pragnya and I’m a high school senior.

Sam And we are so excited to be hosting this week’s episode of Law School.

Pragnya Every two weeks, we interview law students to uncover the role of corporate actors in producing many of our most urgent social problems, and the troubling tale of corporate actors shaping, bending, capturing, and breaking the law in their favor. And today, and in this episode, we’ll be discussing the corporatization of drag.

Sam We’re joined by Grayce Burns, a law student and wonderful human that I’ve had the pleasure of being connected with through Professor Hanson. Welcome to Flaw school, Grace. Class is in session.

Grayce Burns Hi everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Thrilled to be here. It’s an honor and a privilege.

Sam Oh, stop. Don’t boost our egos too much.

Pragnya We are so glad to have you on, Grace. Why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself? When did you realize you wanted to go to law school?

Grayce Of course. So my name is Grayce. My pronouns are she, they. I’m a third year law student at Harvard. Crazy. Originally from the land of old Bay and John Waters, Baltimore, Maryland, wear that very proudly. I first wanted to go to law school when I came into the world, the first thing my granddad ever said to me when he heard my name was. That sounds like a Supreme Court justice. Don’t know who’s going to tell them that. That is not going to happen. But I guess you could say it was written in the stars. When my parents wanted to get married, they actually had to pass a law in Maryland so that they could get married. So I’m a child of controversy, born to go into the law, break it and rewrite it. Much like Thanos from the critically acclaimed Avengers series. I’m thrilled to be here. I had an absolutely wonderful time working on this piece, meeting with everyone I got to meet with, and I’m so excited to talk to you all about it.

Sam I feel like this is a separate conversation. I do want to know what made you realize you don’t want to be a Supreme Court justice.

Grayce Honestly, I just don’t look great in all black. And I figured that was a requirement for the job. And also, I’ve never seen any of them bring their dog to work and so on. Like an office that is not dog friendly is simply not a place I could imagine spending my career, let alone a life tenure.

Sam Yeah, that does sound like a hostile working environment, so I get it. But I do want to ask you, is there any intersection between your interest in law, like being born into the law? Were you born into an interest in drag? Like how did you find yourself interested in the topic?

Grayce So as someone who was born into the law, both of my parents are government attorneys in the state of Maryland. And so I was very much a latchkey child, which was a terror for my parents. But my absolute dream as a as a young individual coming home from school, I had unfettered access to the internet and cable television in the early 2000s. And so that really did a lot of damage. Just kidding. A lot of personal development happened, from the hours of 3 to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday. And that was also the time that, Drag Race would play on, television when I would come home from school. So I would come home, eat my little snack, obviously 6 to 10 bags of Utz potato chips and watch Drag Race before my parents came home. And that was kind of the initial, I guess, harbinger of me being interested in drag. And then my parents would come home and talk to me about what they did at work today. So I guess there was kind of always that connection there, but it didn’t really come up for me until I had the opportunity to write this piece. And it was the really like the first thing I thought of and the last thing I thought of. And I’m looking forward to never thinking of anything else ever again.

Sam And I love that. And that was so real of you. Thank you for sharing. I was going to ask what your after school snack was, so I’m glad you touched on that. [00:04:45] [0.0s] Can you walk us through your piece a bit like I know Pragnya and I ate this piece up, but for those who haven’t read the article yet, can you fill us in and kind of give us a bit of a play by play?

Grayce Of course. Yeah. So this piece was kind of the the brainchild that I birthed, in Professor Hanson’s Corporations class. I know a lot of great brain children have been birthed in that class. And so it was my honor and privilege to bring yet another beautiful child into the world through Professor Hansen’s, corporation’s class. I walked into that class on day one, and he said, so there is an optional paper or an exam. And I said, oh, hey, stop talking. I’m going to write the paper immediately. And then I thought, where are we going from here? What are we going to do? And I, you know, have often got some great advice from a lot of law professors on campus. Also some terrible advice, but I don’t pay for that, so I don’t talk about that. But the good advice I have gotten is like, do things that you’re really excited about. And I think the most profound piece of advice I’ve gotten from Professor Martha minow was like, anyone, almost anyone will talk to you if you tell them that you’re a Harvard Law student and you want to interview them. So, like whatever you can do to have those opportunities, pursue those. And I was like, okay, I would love to talk to a bunch of drag queens, obviously. So I decided to do this kind of topic purely as an avenue through which I could get the personal phone numbers of several of my favorite drag queens, and then it kind of evolved from there to be something that was very interesting and something I really had a good time writing about.

Sam And I think that’s the best way to do it. But can you kind of like, tell us, like what the different sections of your piece kind of what specifically are you writing about when it comes to the corporatization of drag in your article?

Grayce Sure. So I think the first thing is that I really want to like, thank the queens who are willing to meet with me. I emailed and DM’d over 150 different queens from Drag Race, and the people who responded were really, I think, some of the best people to offer their voices for what ended up being this piece, and I could not be more grateful to them for taking the time to chat with me after I got over the first like 10 to 15 minutes of meeting like, oh, this is crazy. Oh my God, if you’re here on this, zoom with me right now. This is wild. We kind of talked a little bit about their experiences, and I got to learn a lot more about the kind of behind the scenes of what goes on in Drag Race, and I was very lucky to have a very broad kind of swath of Queens to talk with who had been on the show in its early ages, who had been on the show more recently, who had positive experiences on the show, negative experiences on the show, and even RuPaul’s drag daughter Lady Bunny, who had never been on the show but has often kind of been referenced on the show. And they really gave me some very interesting perspectives on kind of what is really going on, behind the scenes, positive, negative, critical, all of that. And as I was speaking with them, I realized there is a little bit more going on here than I think I thought. I was like, oh my God, this does connect to corporate law. This isn’t just like me doing something fun for fun, not me learning. Okay, Professor handsome. So I had these conversations and I really wanted to write something that spoke a little bit to the kind of, I think, manipulation that doesn’t necessarily get talked about a lot when it comes to Drag Race, because it’s so overproduced and because there is that essence of like, yes, this is fake. I think that leads a lot of more critical questions to being kind of not discussed as much or not really. More brushed under the rug than I think a lot of people initially see when they watch the TV show. So having those conversations with, getting to the bottom of, you know, why did you leave Drag Race or why did you decide to, like, make all of your costumes out of completely recycled materials? What were the broader messages behind those decisions? And why? Why are you happy or why are you a little bit disappointed that it didn’t work out the way you wanted it to?

Sam Amazing, and I don’t. I feel like you did name all of the queens that you actually interviewed for this piece. Kind of just like here and there, kind of naming them as you were, just speaking. But can you just for the fans out there, just hit them all right now? So that way we make sure we are naming all them, giving them the credit that they deserve.

Grayce Oh my gosh, of course. So, I spoke with Tempest DuJour absolutely lovely person, I spoke with Lady Bunny, who is really an entrepreneur in the purest sense of the form. Might be, who’s that guy? Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank in drag? I don’t know, I’ve just never seen them in the same room together. So who’s to say? I also spoke with Ben De la crumb, actress, choreographer, dancer. Really? Everything. And the incomparable Tammy Brown, who is really, I think, the essence of the universe put into the human form. If one day we find out that Tammy Brown is like God, but in corporeal form, I don’t think I’d be, like, super surprised just because she knows the secrets of the universe, and I want her to tell them to me. Those are the people I spoke with for the piece. I spoke with some people over email who said, no thank you. We’re too busy to talk with you right now for free. And then I said, that is a great point for me to put into the article that you were too busy to talk to me for free, so I won’t be naming those names, but thankful to everyone who responded and especially the individuals I got to chat with.

Pragnya Awesome. So let’s talk about something specific that one of the drag queens that you did talk about mentioned. So in your article, Ben Dela Kram, highlights that drag used to have distinct cultures and styles within different regions. Could you talk a little bit more about the broadening of drag’s visibility, and how that has impacted these unique local drag cultures? What were some components of drag that used to vary city by city?

Grayce Sure. So this was something that I think was much more prevalent in the earlier seasons of Drag Race, before it became so popular, before it became such kind of this global phenomenon. There were people on Drag Race who were doing kind of the earliest forms of basic drag, which Tempest calls, and the kind of broader drag community calls booger drag, which is very much like the first kind of foray an individual has into drag. You know, it’s not expected for them to look good. They’re not expected to look pretty or beautiful or anything of the sort if you want, like a visual picture. I don’t know if you’ve seen that image of JD Vance in drag, but that is kind of booger drag in the purest, most essential form, the the Plato’s form of booger drag, if you will. And so there’s that kind of early aspect where you have queens who are just starting out, and that’s really everywhere kind of universal. And that’s been largely wiped away because of the expectations that the audience has now that every drag queen is perfect, that they’re all, you know, TV ready? Because of, again, the expectations Drag Race has brought up, you also have more kind of performance art or alternative based, drag queens, which still largely exist. But I would say that a lot of them are concentrated in the more metropolitan areas, the artsy or areas like New York. You have, Christine Vale, you have narcissists there who are doing, kind of more social commentaries on the artistic experience of drag and really relating those two experiences of, gender and sexuality, race in the broader culture, you have, pageant drag, which is something that has been really popular on Drag Race recently. It’s a very much like Southern Belle, kind of similar to Toddlers and Tiaras, except they are grown adult humans, who are also in tiaras, and they are doing the standard kind of swimsuit swimsuit competition, wearing the beautiful beaded gowns with the tiaras. And they do actually compete for. Titles on a national and international level. They’re really all different kinds of drag that used to and still do exist. But I think that what Ben kind of picked up on very actually, was the sense that because of how popular drag has gotten on, you know, national and international level, you lose some of the ability for those kind of organic subcultures to exist and to thrive. So, like speaking from my experience, like, Baltimore used to have and still kind of does have a very vibrant, very, I guess, elaborate drag scene. But recently, I think in my lifetime and certainly from before that, there has been a major shift towards a more polished, a more kind of presentable, sense of, of drag. You know, you used to have drag queens that we’d get up and just like, eat like 15 hot dogs in a minute and like, that was their drag thing, and I’m. Hey, I’m living for that. Okay? Far be it for me to stand on a stage and eat 15 hot dogs in front of an audience of people. I normally do that in the privacy of my own home. So, like, go off. But now it’s much more of like, you expect to see someone get on stage, lip sync to a Beyonce song, and then, like, pull off a cape and surprise, there’s an outfit under their other outfit. And I think that is what Ben kind of picked up on. The sense that because of how popular drag has become, because of how popular drag race and how influential this kind of archetype of the drag queen has become. From what we’re seeing on Drag Race, you lose the queens who are able to eat 15 hot dogs in a minute. And I’m not saying that like, we don’t know where they are because they’re there, but I’m saying that they’re not doing it on stage anymore. They’re doing it immediately before they go out on stage.

Pragnya Let’s talk a little bit more about these new expectations for drag queens. So in your article you wrote about how drag has historically served as a form of protest. You explore the transition of drag from an activity amassed as a masquerade ball to a more mainstream and accessible form of entertainment, while drag is no longer illegal. How do you see drag continuing to form as a function of political participation in today’s context? By challenging societal norms despite increasing corporate control over the industry?

Grayce That is such a great question. And I think something that I didn’t really know a lot about, particularly like the, the early, early history of drag until I started researching for this piece. So again, shout out to Professor Hanson for like, accidentally making me learn something when I really tried my hardest to not do that. And so I was really knee deep in, like the passenger seat of the Harvard archives, trying to figure out what the history was here. And I saw a lot of wonderful articles. I saw a ton of amazing pictures that I was able to get from the archives to include in the piece, that really go through this, this history of drag first as something that was legal and people were getting arrested for to something that was, you know, more accepted kind of form of offbeat political protest, to now where we’ve almost kind of come full circle back into drag being another form of political protest. Today, I think, you see drag into kind of major veins. You see it in, I guess, more like liberal spaces where it’s something to be really celebrated and uplifted. A lot of, I guess, more ideologically liberal individuals are behind that kind of idea of free speech and free expression and do whatever they can to uplift those people. And then I think you see the more kind of politicized version of drag, kind of coming out against a lot of those, drag bans or restrictions on how people can present themselves in public. And so I think that is the main avenue where people use drag as. This rejection of those popular ideas that are gaining more momentum in today’s society. Something that I do think is interesting is how we’ve seen drag today come into more of the hobby space because of the popularity of Drag Race. I’ve seen more casual drag queens in the last year than I have maybe in the last 20 years. Other years of my life. I’m not 20. I’m so young, actually. And. Like. I think that the Hobby-ification of drag has been one of the good things to come out of the popularity of Drag Race, where, you know, I’m able to expose, like my really conservative father to drag just because we happen to be at a bar where a drag queen was performing. And so I think the two kind of major outcomes of the popularity of Drag Race, making it easier for people to use drag as this kind of political protest, but also making it easier for people to bring drag into more everyday. Modern, attainable spheres are two of the major ways that I think corporations have, at least for now, been stayed off of taking that, taking over that realm of the performance.

Pragnya Let’s talk a little bit more about, like the effects of the the increased popularity of drag. In your article, you talk about your conversation with Lady Bunny and how mainstream media has disadvantage drag queens by taking away the necessity of actually having to pay to watch drag. Now you can just watch it on your TV at the click of a button, and this undermines the venues and the drag acts themselves based on what you learned. Do you think that this increased visibility and ease of access to drag content online does also help drag queens by spreading awareness and helping them reach new audiences? And if so, does that benefit of increased accessibility outweigh the the harm? How do you see this balance evolving in the future?

Grayce So I think I’ll take your your question in kind of three parts. So I think, like to answer your first question, I do think that this kind of increased visibility from having drag so accessible on streaming platforms, on YouTube and TikTok, helps drag queens by kind of spreading awareness about the art form, obviously increasing acceptance, and helping drag queens reach new audiences. Honestly, like, one of my favorite things to do is like go on TikTok live and like, watch drag queens, like do their makeup and like, I do my makeup with them. And then at the end, I like, look at myself and I normally have pounds of makeup caked on my face, and then I compare myself to them and I’m like, oh my God, just come on. Natural D-Bus lay. No. But I think that there is obviously kind of the barrier there that Lady Bunny picks up on, where if you’re not paying to support this individual and the art that they’re putting out, you have to kind of question how much value you’re really imparting on them and how much support you’re actually imparting on them. There is also the angle of, you know, you’re paying for a streaming service. So, you know, you’re paying, what, $8 a month? For Paramount, which is where Drag Race is being streamed from these days. And you can kind of think, okay, well, maybe some of that is going to the drag queens. And so, you know, you’re watching the ads, you’re kind of giving back that way, but you’re still not going to the bar like Lady Bunny said and going and sitting and giving your money to these queens in person. And I think that is kind of an, an aspect of, of drag that I have seen become a little bit more, awkward, a little bit more rare recently, which is that kind of act of like physically handing your dollar over to the drag queen during her performance and having that connection and making that kind of, public statement of like, yes, I support you. I love what you’re doing, and I want to keep supporting what you’re doing. You don’t get the same kind of, feeling or ability to have that personal development when you’re, like, tapping your credit card for Apple Pay to tip a drag queen. Oh, you’re, like, sending hearts on, like, a live stream on TikTok or something. And I think that kind of person to person connection is something Lady Bunny and, Tammy Brown and Tempest and really, everyone I spoke with, missed a little bit. But to answer your second question, And so what your your second question was does that benefit of increased accessibility outweigh the harm.  I, I do think that the benefit of increased accessibility outweighs the harm. Tempest spoke a lot about this in, you know, my question of what do you think about, the recent increase in, like, pride merchandise or in, non-binary merchandise specifically with, you know, the target pride lines that we saw a few years ago asking her what she thought about that as a drag queen, as, an academic, as a parent. And she talked about how, you know, she doesn’t really care if that extra money is going to line somebody’s pockets, who is already already very rich or who is already very successful, because of the way that that visibility would have impacted her when she was growing up. You know, as a very closeted, kind of, repressed individual. And so from her perspective, even if there is a little bit of of harm in the sense of supporting this kind of inherently capitalist, manipulative economic structure that underlines a lot of these pride campaigns or, you know, similar kind of avenues for viewing drag and other kind of queer art forms. It is, at the end of the day, beneficial because you have no idea how many people are going to see that representation and be reaffirmed and feel a kind of safety that they haven’t yet had the opportunity to feel by viewing, representation. I think in the future, to answer your third question, And so this third question of like, how do you see this balance evolving in the future? I I see this kind of balance almost kind of coming to, a reckoning, as I think a lot of different subcultures, in a modern society, are, particularly with TikTok, streaming, the culture wars, all of those things. You have to wonder if we are ever going to reach a boiling point. And I think that the first kind of aspect of the that begins with a lot of labor organizing, particularly like. ]I think the idea of a drag queen union would be amazing and wonderful, and really go a long way to help queens make the money that they deserve for having this kind of impact. But hopefully, obviously, I would like to see the balance evolving more towards, benefiting individuals and, increasing the accessibility and awareness of drag rather than these kind of harmful capitalist structures that we’ve been entrenched in for really long.

Sam So kind of touching a little bit more on the capitalist structures and the corporatization of drag. And I’m thinking really about how you just talked about the access that people have to drag through platforms that you might pay some relatively small amount to. I want to think about, like the economic impact that has on Queens and specifically thinking about the queens on Drag Race, just because you talk about that a bit in your article, specifically talking about, how queens have to sign an NDA to participate in Drag Race. It really made me wonder kind of what sort of bargaining power do Queens have with regard to their participation on the show. Right, like an NDA for those who don’t know the details, haven’t read the article yet, or thinking about an an irrevocable license to reproduce, display, distribute your name, your image and your likeness. That’s huge. That’s like a lifetime thing. And so I guess I’m just wondering what you think about that.

Grayce Oh my God. Yes. Thank you for bringing this up, Sam. That was something that is kind of like a meme within the Drag Race community of, like, how ironclad the NDA is. Something that a lot of great articles have been written on. A lot of queens have spoken about it very publicly, how manipulative it is and has become. It was something that came about, I think, early, in the kind of reality TV sphere when individuals kind of first realized like, oh, we can make money off of these people. Having them sign something like a non-disclosure agreement, an NDA, really allows you to have complete control over what the narrative is moving forward. And that can be really beneficial if you’re somebody who’s, you know, a producer on a show like Drag Race where you are trying to create these storylines, artificial or not. Obviously, as Drag Race has become more popular, the NDA has become a little bit more ironclad because, like you mentioned, Sam, there’s just not the bargaining power of a group of queens, let alone one queen who isn’t very well known, who, you know, kind of how does Willy Wonka show up to her house? Would they be like, hey, you want to go be a drag queen on the national stage? And it’s RuPaul herself, and she says, just sign this NDA. It’s giving very much The Little Mermaid. It’s giving very much like Ursula having Ariel sign her voice away kind of moment. And you don’t even get like a cool necklace afterwards, which is kind of honestly the biggest scam in the universe. So moving from, from that kind of the increased bargaining power that Drag Race has compared to these queens. Something that I did hear from my conversations with different individuals like Tempest or, Lady Bunny, is this the increased sanitization that Drag Race has kind of accidentally or purposely brought into the drag sphere, has led to, very interestingly, a preference on the large scale for this kind of archetypal drag queen, you know, very like beautiful young twink, loves to do pageant drag, very palatable on a large scale, but also is ready to kind of sell her soul to get into Hollywood, which, you know, I love, and I’m living for that. But something that a lot of Queens mentioned to me is like the literally Drag race is running out of twinks to put on Drag Race. You’re running out of drag queens who can perform drag at the level that Drag Race is requesting. Because they’re the twinks, contrary to popular belief, are a finite resource, and twinks who are good at doing drag are a finite resource. And so there is a little bit of increased bargaining power that you’re seeing now when it comes to signing this NDA of the type of drag that is going to go on the show, or the type of individuals that are going to go on the show. Because RuPaul herself has also mentioned some of the girls on recent seasons. You know, they don’t have the experience. They don’t have the kind of breadth of knowledge that you need to have to get these references that drag races based on, or to compete in these challenges. RuPaul makes these references to, to Mommie Dearest or to other kind of queer cultural mainstays that are 50, 30, 20 years old. And these young kids. That Drag Race is kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel to get on TV, just like, don’t get it. And I’m here like beautiful, wonderful 16 year old me. Having watched Drag Race for the past 45 years, being like, girl, what are you talking about? You don’t get that reference. Hello, mother. You need people who know what’s going on in this kind of culture. We can’t just have beautiful, wonderful people be put on television to be drag queens, because drag is about so much more than that.

Sam Do you feel like there has been a reckoning with that, like publicly on Drag Race or that? Is that something that’s really going on behind the scenes that people are just all talking about, like what’s going to happen? Like we see how that’s looking on TV and that’s not what people are coming to Drag Race for.

Grayce So I think there has been a reckoning. I think increasingly we haven’t reached a tipping point yet, but there has definitely been more conversation about it among the Drag Race community. Recently, because of losing that aspect of going to see a drag performer, you know, losing the aspect of actually having to kind of work your way up through the drag sphere has led to a lot of people being on Drag Race because they’re popular on social media and because, you know, they have really wonderful, beautiful makeup skills or their costumes are very beautifully done. But in elevating those people, you have to realize that a main part of the show is your ability to perform and to engage in a lot of those kind of core drag art forms and representations of queer art. And so in recent seasons, you’ve seen people go on the show who just don’t know how to lip sync to a song because they’ve only ever done it on, you know, TikTok, where they can control absolutely everything about it. And so it has left the audience, I think, in a lot of circumstances, wanting more, but that also counterbalances against the amount of power that the producers on Drag Race have to show you what they want to show you. To cut things the way that they want to cut things and to produce the narratives that they have. And so that also is another aspect of it, which is, you know, you’re seeing this person who doesn’t have a lot of experience be put on this national stage and be, you know, performing this kind of kind of poorly. And you have to ask yourself, like, they’re showing us this because they want you to see it. And it’s almost kind of unfair for them to go out and scout this person knowing that this isn’t their strong suit, and then highlighting something that is not their strong suit to such an intense degree.

Pragnya You talked about how the increased visibility of drag has allowed individuals to pursue drag casually as a hobby. But on the other side of that, in your article, you mentioned how due to the increased commercialization of drag, individuals are able to pursue drag as an actual career rather than just a hobby too. In fact, you reported that some of the most famous drag queens have an estimated net worth of between 2 and $10 million, or, as you would put it, dull hairs. However, Ben dela crumb also brings up the point that this has led to a scenario where some performers might be more driven by economic incentives, rather than a genuine passion for drag. How do you think the shift in motivation affects the authenticity and artistic integrity of drag as a whole? Are the financial benefits changing the way drag is approached and perceived within the community?

Grayce Okay, so two questions there. The first kind of how do I think this change in motivation affects the authenticity and artistic integrity of drag overall? I think this is something that has come increasingly hot. Take maybe not a hot take. Actually, like many things, this came out of the 2008 financial crisis. After the kind of brief recovery of that we saw after the 2008 financial crisis, we saw more individuals going to college to pursue these kind of, artistic endeavors that they really wanted to have. But in a way, we never really recovered from the 2008 financial crisis. Kind of sad reacts here. But also, you know, Queens graduating from these colleges with bachelor’s in theaters or, bachelors in musical theater who are realizing, oh, there isn’t as much of a market for the skill that I’ve cultivated. As I really thought that there was. And so now you’re seeing more and more people kind of pivot and taking those professionally developed skills and using them for drag, which is in many ways a double edged sword. So you’re seeing individuals who have these really well honed, skills for dancing, singing, acting, which are kind of the fundamental basics of being able to succeed. Particularly in the Drag Race sphere of drag that we have today. But it’s also, I think, leading to more individuals who are getting into drag, not necessarily because of the love of it as an art form. Because of it being an avenue through which they can, you know, explore themselves and explore gender identity and expression. But because it’s can be a really great way to make some money, something that I think Tempest and Ben touched along that goes with this a little bit more, though, is you’re having more conversations about the kind of debt that people are being asked to take on in order to go on Drag Race and to engage in these very popular kind of forms of exposure for young drag queens. And so, whereas I think maybe a few years ago, you know, the the BFA drag queen was somewhat of a menace or a meme within the drag community you’re seeing now with these conversations about the amount of debt people are coming off of Drag Race with, even after winning. You know, you’re you’re having individuals maybe put in a second thought before going into these careers without really thinking out if this is something they want to pursue. I am not really sure. To your second question, whether the the financial benefits are changing the way drag is approached and perceived within the broader community. It’s definitely something I think that has changed the way that people are engaging with drag queens as personalities or as individuals, but not necessarily within the art form as a whole. Lady Bunny talks about this a little bit, where Drag Race really pushes people to become famous based on a catchphrase, and they really push drag queens, who are already themselves caricatures of this caricature character that they’ve invented, into becoming even more, more subtle, the caricature and even something that is marketable on a mass scale. So, for example, when I when I speak about this, as far as like individual queens go, you have queens whose whole brand is almost a subset of drag, where they have almost become like the flag bearer for that aspect or that identity of drag. I’m thinking in particular of like Lady Bunny, who has become the pallbearer for like, you know, older kind of, more campy fun drag. And then you have queens who maybe a little bit more like, Crystal method are a little bit more kooky and who are kind of like the scion for like, weird alternative drag and so on and so forth. So I don’t know if the financial benefits have changed the way that we view the drag scheme overall, but I think it definitely has changed the way that we view the subgenres of drag in that they’ve helped to establish these kind of, archetypes for what does this kind of drag mean? What does it do and how should this kind of drag queen act?

Grayce And on the point of Queens, kind of like feeling this increased drive to create a brand for themselves, right? Something that’s marketable past like Drag Race, for example. It makes me think about the financial benefits that actually come with being on Drag Race. And, you know, we talked a bit about this before we actually started recording today. But maybe like naively, I was so surprised to learn from your peers that queens are only paid $500 per episode of Drag Race, excluding recaps and reunions, and that there is 5% increases per season in that payout. I can’t imagine I’m the only one who was surprised to learn this, because to me, it’s like they’re queens. Of course they’re being paid like queens. I don’t think of that as being $500 for all of the hours that go in to participate in one episode, like you’ve talked about, like the time it takes to get ready, the time it takes to shoot, and also the energy it just takes to do all of those things. I don’t think $500 is nearly enough money. And I guess I’m wondering, like, how do you think I’m going to say the corporations in this vague sense? Because I think there’s a lot of different corporations that are playing a role in this. How do you think they’ve gotten away with this of just like, here’s a little like meager payout for all of the work that you’re doing that’s making all of us super rich.

Grayce So that was something that I was very surprised myself to find out the details of the Drag Race NDA. I knew it was strict, but until kind of reading a lot of the leaks and talking with some of the queens who have signed different iterations of these NDAs, these non-disclosure agreements, it was something that I genuinely could not believe. So, like you mentioned, you get $500 an episode excluding recaps and reunions. So that basically means, you know, if you are asked to come on Drag Race for a 10, 12 episode season, you get your package together, you quit your day job, you tell everyone you’re going to get foot surgery, because you can’t tell them you’re going on a reality TV show and you disappear for for three weeks. Oops. You get eliminated. The first episode. Here’s your $500. Hey, what’s going on? What are you talking about? All of a sudden, you’re locked in this hotel for, you know, the remainder of the filming of the season. You’re not allowed to contact anyone. And you’re just kind of sitting there twiddling your thumbs because RuPaul decided that she didn’t like you. And again, here’s your $500. That’s two thirds of one iPad. Good luck with that. And I think that kind of incentive, that financial incentive really pushes people towards this, this fame based on a catchphrase, because those kind of things are things that you can trademark. They’re things that you can market. There are things that you can, you know, sell, sell yourselves. And so that used to be kind of a happy accident to come out from Drag Race. You have people like Tami Brown, who I spoke with who were very much, you know, organically became famous after the fact or were before famous before the fact, just because of the kind of person that they are and the kind of personality that they have. But then you have queens who are going on more recent seasons, with this explicit goal of, you know, this is my catchphrase and I’m going to make this happen so I can put it on t shirts. And a lot of the queens I spoke with again kind of pointed out the double edged nature of this, which is, you know, the corporation in having them sign these NDAs, gains a lot of control over these personalities and gains this legal ability to recreate their likenesses in perpetuity. Really, you know, forever. And so now you have queens who have no other option than to just try to stay on for as long as they can. And then even if they succeed in making this fame based on a catchphrase, like Lady Bunny said, they’re still screwed in a lot of avenues because they’ve already sold anything that they create and their likenesses, to to drag race. And that leads the question of, you know, who is really benefiting from this at the end of the day? Because it’s it’s not the Queens, you know, sure. They gain this kind of social capital or notoriety that we all, you know, aspire to have. Maybe. But it’s not like social capital is not going to put food on your table. It’s not going to pay your electricity bill unless you’re, like, really rising up the electric company. Like it’s not going to do anything for you at the end of the day. And it’s certainly not allowing these queens to build businesses for themselves and to build independent brands. You’ve seen very few queens who’ve been successful at doing this. You know, you have Trixie Mattel, you have, kimchi, who have become very successful business owners because almost they haven’t been able to make that fame based on a catchphrase. They’ve actually gone into makeup or other sort of independent creative ventures that Drag Race couldn’t have a hold on through that NDA. And so a lot of the people who have seemingly been the most uplifted by Drag Race are people who have survived and thrived in light of being uplifted by Drag Race and by those nondisclosure agreements.

Sam So you mentioned that there are these queens who have actually like done super, super well, like Trixie Mattel, like you’re talking about, because they’ve been able to find loopholes basically in the news. I guess I’m wondering, do you think that basically the corporate entities have just become like really good at storytelling as well about Drag Race of like, these are queens, they get all this social capital, like you mentioned, and it makes people not even wonder about the financial realities of the show because they just assume the queens are doing well. Or do you think I guess I’m curious, do you think the corporations are really not even, like, thinking like that? Because they see how these other queens have done well, despite the NDAs and or like, we don’t even need to worry about it. We don’t even need to think about it.

Grayce I think there is definitely a calculated effort, particularly in more recent years, to put less emphasis on the financial undertaking that Queens, have to go through to get onto the show. There’s a couple different ways. I think I’ve seen this play out, from the way that the producers are producing the shows and the storylines, they’re not focusing as much on, reusable or kind of, sustainable aspects of the show. So in the past, when the show was a little bit less known that there were challenges, design challenges on the show where queens would have to go dumpster diving and, you know, create an outfit from that, or the Queens had a little bit more freedom over, how their narratives were perceived. There were a little bit more discussions about the financial aspects and difficulties that can come with, performing drag. Now, I think it’s very much, sanitized in the way that you mentioned, where the show knows that these things are becoming more common knowledge among the fan base, but also among, you know, consumers of the show popularly. And they obviously don’t want to talk about that because of the critical acclaim that the show has been getting. Because the show, you know, has been such a trailblazer as far as queer representation goes for award shows for just kind of broadcast television, you have this desire to want to keep, doing well and elevating queer voices and winning those Emmys and things like that. But you have to counteract that against the fact that, you know, that requires really purposeful storytelling. And that requires very intentional producing that is not necessarily going to be benefited from you talking about the fact that you’re taking advantage of all of these, people and performers who are engaging in this kind of inherently, anarchic sort of platform. So, to answer your second question about, you know, do you think producers assume that the queens do well from the show itself? Or maybe they’re becoming a little bit more aware of these loopholes? I think that’s something that producers have been trying to close as much as possible, to be honest. In the most recent season, and I talk about this a little bit in my piece, is comparing the mini challenge with the Tammy Faye Baker prints, the face makeup prints on the t shirts to the art that Tammy Brown has been producing for the last 6 to 8 years. And so those kind of face prints and those those art prints that they have the queens put on t shirts and then immediately start to sell. That’s not something that is inherently, you know, something like Trixie Cosmetics that they can prevent queens from engaging in. But if you think about it in the way of capitalizing from from their labor, they’re literally taking their makeup, their face prints, almost something like as unique to individuals as a fingerprint is, a face print is for drag queens. And using that as another way for them to trademark something, as another way for them to retain ownership of it. And so, you know, you think people with iconic makeup, if they had done that for Trixie Mattel, they would own literally the copyright for her makeup. They could have her stop using that at any time. They could license that and market that. And so I think the the show has also been using these discussions over financial loopholes or the financial difficulties of, of drag queens to close a lot of the avenues that Queens used to have to be able to establish themselves as business people past Drag Race.

Sam In addition to the meager pay that you and Sam mentioned, and drag races strategy to monetize things that the drag queens do while limiting the queens is ability to benefit from it independently. In your article, Tempest also talks about her time on RuPaul’s Drag Race and says it was ten years ago that I was on the show and I still have debt from the costumes, the hair, the shoes and the makeup. So I want to know, do you think the investment is at all worth it in the long run? For the Queens with the meager pay, debt, and overall exploitation, what motivates the queens to go on Drag Race? 

Grayce I think for a lot of queens, probably the overwhelming majority of Queens, it is worth it. Especially like speaking from my perspective as somebody who is 20 years old, about to graduate from Harvard Law School. My expectation of, you know, what kind of investment is worth it is going to be very different from the expectation of, you know, a queer kind of artist growing up in the Rust Belt who just wants to do the things that they really love to do and now has the opportunity to make even, like, more than minimum wage an hour, or even get paid to do something that they really love to do. And so I think obviously this is a question that varies from queen to queen, but overall, I do think that this investment is probably worth it. Even with the the manipulation that you have going on now, having more queens continue to go on Drag Race and then be willing and be so gracious with their time, like Tempest and Lady Bunny and Ben de la crumb and Tammy were willing to speak out about these kind of experiences that they have had. Makes it, you know, those kind of. Makes those kind of outcomes that we want to see, like, unionizing, like collective bargaining agreements, like kind of, an end date on NDAs make those things more likely. So even if it causes, you know, me, if getting paid $500 for 2440 eight hours worth of work isn’t something that necessarily tickles my fancy. It’s something that I do see a value for within the queer space, within the art form overall. I do think that there is kind of this to answer your second question of, you know, what motivates queens to go on Drag Race with knowing about all of this debt, knowing about all of this exploitation that they’re signing up for. I think queens do it at the end of the day because of hope, and because they have seen these queens who have gone against the grain and who have, despite everything being set up against them, still, succeeding like Trixie, like Katya, like Lady Bunny, like even RuPaul. You know, you watch footage of RuPaul in the 80s when she was walking the streets and engaging with hookers and prostitutes and sex workers, and you’re like, I’m not saying that that’s Jesus, but that is my Jesus. And you see the kind of hope that she had for the future and the way that that drag could be perceived in queer people and sex workers could be perceived. And she’s really brought a lot of that into the fold. And so you think about the exploitation that’s going on now, compared to some of the things that that queer people have experienced in the past. You have this opportunity to go on this national international platform and yes, sell your soul a little bit, but also have job security for a few years. Also have access to all of these advertisers who wouldn’t care about you at all, were it not for the fact that you agreed to go on the show. And so I think the queens really continue to go on Drag Race because of this desire to share their art with the world, and because of this desire to continue broadly, to be part of uplift and queer voices in popular culture. 

End of Part 1

Beginning of Part 2

Pragnya In your opinion, how would you assess the overall impact of the show on a Queen’s career and the Queens’ financial stability in a broader context? How do they benefit or how are they harmed financially in the future? 

Grayce Okay, so this is such a good question because a lot of queens, will give you different, I think, feedback in as far as how the the show can impact their career because so much of it is left to like, what do the producers want to show to people? Girl, if you walk on stage and like, you fart too loud and a producer decides you’re the villain for the season, no matter what you say, it’s going to be cut and taken out of context, and you’re going to be the villain for the season. And you’ve seen a lot of queens who’ve been put in those situations. Jeremy, who used to perform under the name Fifi O’Hara, was kind of famously this antagonist to the season’s, winner, and was really, like, ridiculed and bullied and had her career, their career really derailed afterwards because of the way the producers decided to show this person. And I think you also have people, like Tammy Brown, who speak up against a lot of the manipulation going on on Drag Race and who the organization decides to kind of sweep under the rug, while also taking every opportunity possible to reassert their dominance over that person and the art that they’ve created. So you see this like, with Tami Brown’s kind of famous reference to teleport. What? Teletubbies taking us to Mars? I think for the last 2 or 3 years, RuPaul’s Drag Con, which is a giant drag convention that happens in California every year now, has been sponsored by the Teletubbies, and RuPaul will never have, Tammy Brown back on the show. RuPaul and Tami Brown, I don’t think, have spoken very amiably since that incident, but every opportunity that the organization has to reassert their ownership of of Tammy’s identity, they have kind of taken to do so, in my opinion. And so I think the effects that the show could have on somebody’s career is obviously, you know, giving them the platform, but it is almost kind of a roll of the dice at the end of the day to see who the show decides to portray favorably and who they decide to make look like the worst person who has ever existed. Which is impossible because to my knowledge, Donald J. Trump has never been on Drag Race. 

Sam Okay, I was going to save this for later, but I feel like this is such a good time to talk about it. I had a question in mind just about how you mentioned in your piece, the producers are actively like making choices to manufacture anger, pain and hurt among members of the queer community and package it for public consumption. And I’m just going to kind of combine all of what I was thinking into this one question, really getting to an iconic scene, that you really being highlight and talk about in your piece. And I think we all know we’re all talking about Ben’s Scene on All Stars. Can you explain for people who haven’t seen exactly what I’m talking about, what I’m talking about?

Grayce No girl. So here’s the tea. Okay, here’s where I start yapping. So what happened was, with this season of All stars, obviously, every season of all stars, the rules change a little bit. What’s going on? No one knows. All we know is that RuPaul is going to be there, and her hair is going to be taller than I am. And so in this season, in this episode, Ben had been winning challenges left and right. Okay? She was acting. She was dancing, doing the wonderful things that the wonderful Ben de la creme in and out of drag does as a wonderful performer in this season, when you won an episode, you had the opportunity to actually pick which of the bottom queens, the worst queens of the week. Went home and you did so by selecting their lipstick, a lipstick with their name on it, which like T okay, hot take, but is there even lipstick in there? I don’t know. But you know, you would show their little lipstick name and be like, this is who I chose to go home. And it was really dramatic because the queens would, like, hide the lipstick in their breastplate and then like, pull it out on stage and everyone would be like. But what happened was Ben was choosing,  between, Trixie Mattel and Shangela. And you’re wondering like who was going to go home? Both of these queens had very, devoted fan bases and were huge personalities and brought a lot to the drag space. And so everyone was kind of on the edge of their seats. And a look comes out, whoa! RuPaul says, hey, can I see your lipstick? Weird question to ask, but I guess, like given the context, it was fine. Then Darla pulls it out. What is that written in shitty white out on the lipstick? It’s her own name. She eliminated herself. Can you imagine what’s going de la? You were literally going to win the whole season. How did you like when I was. This was my Avengers Endgame. This was my Infinity War. When Thanos snaps in the Avengers and everything happens. That’s what this was for me when I was like 12 at the time, I was like, I’m going to fall out of my body right now. Everyone was like, what’s going on? What’s happening? Obviously, the producers aren’t going to be have, you know, been a 15 minute talking head to be like, and here’s why I hate Drag Race. And also RuPaul is ugly and also I hate all of you. They weren’t going to give her that. They weren’t going to give her her flowers. And we didn’t have, you know, TikTok. We didn’t have Twitter to the degree that we had it today for. But to go on and be like, listen, girls, here’s the tea. No, we had to read into it. It was itself a piece of performance art. It was itself a political statement for ben de la creme to be like, I’m leaving. And if you know the tea, you know the tea. And Ben didn’t talk about, you know, why she left in very exact terms for a long time. But I think as she has kind of become more successful independently in her career, she’s been more willing to speak up about the kind of manipulation and injustice that Queens on Drag Race go through and why that was such a driving factor for her to leave and to show her old lipstick. So she dipped out. Also, she was wearing like the most iconic, like goth girlfriend outfit of all time, which was in itself such a power move. But it was one of the most formative moments of television I have ever watched personally, and I know it was one of the most formative moments of television my cat has ever watched personally also. So, big moves made around here.

Sam Thank you. I can’t imagine someone giving a better recap of that than you. Do you feel like and was really able to maintain ownership of that scene of kind of like what point issue was trying to get across of why she was leaving, which, you know, before your amazing article was not known to the public, but do you feel like she was able to maintain that ownership over the scene? Do you feel like that was something that was actually manufactured in certain ways that actually took away from Ben’s moment? 

Grayce So when it comes to Bendela Kreme’s Exit from All Stars, there are a few things that I think. Came to mind for me. The first is that. Going into my conversation with her. It was not something that I wanted to to bring up, but it is something that obviously was was there because it was such an iconic moment in the Drag Race community for this individual who had been for the majority of the season, portrayed as the runaway winner to give it all up. It was something that I thought was obviously very, very brave of her to do. But if you watch the clip, of her leaving, you see, even in in that moment of her deciding to write her own name on the elimination lipstick, how kind of dramatic the that moment was made by the producers. There’s, what, 30 40s of just, like, cutting to different drag queens. Shocked Pikachu faces. After Ben shows the lipstick and even like RuPaul in that moment is like, hey, I’m getting my Emmy. I am getting my Oscar nomination. Like, RuPaul is living for it, but she’s acting like she isn’t. And so you have this kind of behind the scenes knowledge of what was going on, which is something I’m very grateful Ben shared with me. Because it does really speak to the essence of the piece, which is that, you know, she had been talking on different podcasts, different features about how exploited she felt on Drag Race and how she saw other queens just being so manipulated. And so, I guess, worn out physically, emotionally, mentally that she knew she wasn’t going to go back to All Stars if she was asked. And this was kind of in the days before that crazy non-disclosure agreement where they said, you know, we can force you to do whatever you want for at least three seasons of Drag Race, back when Queens still had a little bit more agency over their own bodies. Crazy thought. She was really talking to people about how this isn’t something that she wanted to continue to support. Because of the way queer people were being portrayed through this, this media that was supposed to uplift people. The producers were just taking the opportunity to say, oh, we can win an Emmy by making some gays cry on television. Let’s do it. Forgetting that these are real people with real feelings. And so when she was asked to go back on Drag Race, she thought a lot about it. And she talked to me kind of, you know, going through her thought process of, do I go back on the show, do I not, because I have this opinion of the show, but at the same time, Drag Race is a monopoly. At the time, there were no other, you know, drag races on television. There were no bully brothers. There were no TikTok for her to use to kind of reach the people, reach her citizenry. She thought, you know, this is kind of what I have to do to stay relevant. And like many people do, I want to go to work every day and show up at 8 a.m.. No, I don’t, but this is what I have to do to stay relevant. The people need me. The people need to hear what I have to say as the personality hire. And so that’s what Ben did. She went back on the show and was willing to kind of give it another shot. And immediately from the moment she arrived, everyone was like, oh, she came to play, you know, with Trixie there, people were like, oh, she came to play. She was doing really well, winning challenge after challenge. And then she realized that the producers in these kind of confessional, behind the scenes moments were reading her quotes about Drag Race being in monopoly, about Drag Race manipulate in Queens to other contestants and asking them to comment on that. What do you think? Do you think it’s hypocritical that Ben is here, even though she said that she would never come back on the show? What do you think about that? Obviously the other queens were talking because who was their allegiance to some little tiny producer from Hollywood, some PA or from, like your colleague who you’ve known for the last ten, 15 years? Yeah. It’s true, your colleague, you know, the girls are going to. Yeah. And so Ben found out about this and then said, oh, no, not on my watch. No thank you. No, ma’am, no, sir, no, ma’am. She didn’t say it like that. You know, she had a much more eloquent, much more, erudite way of saying this is a way I wanted to protest against them using my own experiences against me and becoming victim to the things that I tried to speak out about. And so that is, is really, I think, why she chose to leave. She was just, you know, I’m I’m done. I, I came back here and I thought that I would be able to kind of rewrite a lot of this or I would be able to just kind of grin and bear it and not get involved in a lot of this. But I’m becoming the kind of person who was manipulated that I wanted to protect in the first place. And so I think that is really what what drove her to leave? It’s something that, you know, I. She didn’t have the opportunity to explain while it happened. It’s something that obviously Drag Race tried to make as dramatic as possible for the wrong reasons. But Ben has continued to be successful despite kind of leaving. That’s actually the season that, you know, Trixie Mattel ended up winning. So it’s worked out well for everyone. But I think that that act of of Ben leaving was recognized by other queens. You know, she told me countless people reached out to her, and she felt even in that moment, though she couldn’t control the narrative, she could control the material that they had to work with to build that narrative. And I think she she really made a powerful message by, by doing so. 

Sam I do want to go a little bit meta for a second. I love to talk about systems. I want to talk about systems with you for a minute. I felt like your article really highlights how corporations have sort of embraced and even, like, consumed drag to make it something like, palatable for a larger audience. Like you said, they’d sanitized drag their drag race so they could financially benefit from. And it really made me think about how, like, our system will modify itself, kind of like mold and blend, to kind of what’s ever sort of showing up in popularity, so that it can continue to persist, because otherwise, you know, whatever this thing is, is it perceived as a threat to the system and it could, you know, dismantle the system or significantly change it in ways that those who’ve been in power over the system are kind of threatened by that. I guess I’m wondering, do you feel like that’s sort of what’s happened with how the corporate world has interacted with drag? Do you feel like it’s really kind of like this system modifying and shaping and bending in order to continue to persist with this kind of thing, it sees as a threat on the horizon. 

Grayce Short answer. Yes. Longer yapping answer. Definitely because, here’s the thing. Here’s what had happened. So when a new generation comes into power, I’m thinking intergenerational sovereignty. I’m thinking, you know, one’s ability to design their own future for themselves. Obviously, the capitalist corporation is going to try to appeal to as many of those individuals as possible and living in that, you know, this post, LGBT rights kind of world, this post, Lawrence versus Texas is post Obergefell world, where more and more queer people are being given this thing called human rights. That’s becoming something that’s like popular among, broad communities of people who have the capacity to experience empathy for other people. And so corporations are recognizing that there is an ability to really connect with the consumer by putting Nina West on stage with the Muppets. 

I’m loving that. Two of my favorite things. And favorite people. Kermit the Frog and Nina West. To seeing Bianca Del Rio be featured on a box of Cheerios. Hasn’t happened yet, but if that does come to fruition, I will expect a pay cut. So obviously, as people become more appreciative of and accepting of, drag cultures and queer communities, more people are feeling like they can be out and proud than before. Corporations are going to see that and they’re going to say, oh, people are gay. And they like when we like the gays, or at least don’t hate them. That equals money. Hello. We love money. So obviously you see corporations moving into that direction. But like you mentioned, Sam, that also comes with this kind of secondary motivation of this is something that is itself based on critiquing systems of racial, gender, sexual oppression. And it’s something that if we embrace and make kind of more uplifted, make more popular, make it seem like we accept, we can control the narrative of. And so that is also a very powerful avenue for people to take. Not saying that I appreciate drag bans, but I am saying that I think drag ban’s did an amazing thing in reminding a lot of people what the purpose of drag is as a tool for political expression, as a tool for protesting, injustices.  It’s kind of like the, for Republicans. Conservatives, shot themselves in the foot by reminding everyone of what drag is supposed to be, by saying, you know, making up all of these lies about drag queens, making it more difficult for people to dress how they would like to in public. Crazy thought, that, you know, everyone realizes, oh, wait, this isn’t just something that you see when you go to a Disney convention, with a bunch of puppets on stage. This isn’t just like a pantomime to be enjoyed by the public, but it is something that is inherently political, and is something that was kind of conceptualized to drive social and economic change. So I think we’ve kind of moved back a little bit more towards a bit public knowledge of the the kind of, nature of drag as being inherently a protest. But a lot of the people I talked with in my article spoke a little bit about how difficult it can be to be a drag queen and have these kind of ideas of protesting the government, of protesting the things that the government does because it isn’t something that financially benefits you necessarily. So I think there’s a lot to be considered there. 

Sam Over the years, it seems that drag has taken a turn from challenging oppressive systems created by the government to challenging oppressive systems created by corporations. In addition to Ben’s iconic scene that we talked about, could you talk a little bit more about any efforts to push back against these corporations and maintain drags activist roots? 

Grayce Sure. So this is something that I was very excited to learn about, because it is very much a rising effort within the drag community, because this is something that that really has to start with drag queens. I think the most immediate individual who pops into my mind is Tammy Brown. For a lot of people who are not, like, too involved in the drag sphere, it can be really surprising to find out that there are now houses and individual designers that people are expected to go to, to get their outfits made or to get their wigs done. There is actually kind of almost this, this smaller capitalist sphere of just, organizations specifically devoted to providing drag supplies to people. And these can range the gamut from, you know, spoke designers who charge $10,000 for a gown to, popular websites like, items for drag queens.com, where items are, like suspiciously cheap. It’s giving to, that sort of thing. And so a lot of queens kind of get their get their supplies from this little, little corporate sphere that they themselves exist in. Tammy Brown works exclusively with international designers, with smaller designers that she finds on, different social media websites who are creating pieces that she really loves. And the she employs, them to work specifically for her on the different kind of costumes that she wears. And so I think that’s a good avenue, to represent this kind of fighting back a little bit about the corporate side of drag that not a lot of people know about, which is like the the supply chain of drag. She works exclusively. She tries to find people who are from underrepresented communities under underrepresented socioeconomic backgrounds and help to uplift them through doing her work. So I think that is a great example of that. I think you have also seen more queens push towards, engaging in merchandise that is more sustainable. So something that I talk a little bit about in my piece is this kind of mass market drag merchandise that is sold for the benefit of a queer performer, of a performer from an underrepresented background, but in a lot of cases, relies like a lot of merchandise does on, slave labor, on human rights violations, on supply chain issues. And so I think now you’re seeing a lot of queens thinking, okay, I would like to make as much money as possible from selling my merchandise, but who am I hurting by selling this merchandise that is so cheap to acquire and who can I benefit? So while right now I think a lot of the talk has been focused on where drag queens choose to get their their items and their materials and costumes from, hopefully a lot of the discussion will push back a little bit more, on corporations. And I think a few queens are really leading that charge vocally, mostly on social media right now outside of the supply chain sphere.

Sam  You mentioned this much earlier, but I feel like this is a good time to kind of come back to it. To people who are just kind of coming to this episode, want to listen because they love law school or they’re just interested in drag. I guess, like I’m wondering, Do you feel like? Like larger public audiences have recognized the monopoly that Drag Race has over drag, or they just really see it as this kind of entity, this show that, like, is great and really enjoy, but don’t see it as a monopoly. 

Grayce This question reminds me of the Despicable Me Minion memes that your mom shares on Facebook, and I’m going to tell you why. So there are are largely two groups of people who are sharing these memes. The first is, I’m doing this because I genuinely believe that these little yellow guys are hilarious. Are they speaking French or are they speaking Italian? I don’t know. Where do they get their overalls? I would love to know. And I think that’s kind of the first camp of people who aren’t necessarily awoken to the idea that Drag Race is a monopoly, because they are just now starting to appreciate Drag Race, just now starting to get into it in this group again. I think the Venn diagram, actually, between people who unironically share minion memes on Facebook and who don’t realize that Drag Race is a monopoly, is a perfect circle because it is like your 55 year old mom who is just now starting to realize that slay is a word that people are saying. And then in the other camp, you have people who are sharing the minion memes. Ironically, they’re like, these little yellow guys are so camp like there’s laying their roots in the house down. Can I be one of them? I would love to be a little yellow minion guy and just, like, not even have to speak English. No thoughts. Head empty. My name is Kevin or Todd or Mike, or like some white guy name or whatever. And that is where I think the people who know that Drag Race is a monopoly exist. They’re kind of watching Drag Race because they recognize that this is an avenue for queer expression. But you have a point now where the Drag Race viewer is no longer, you know, engaging with the show at face value, but is watching it critically and engaging with other people online and talking about the kind of critical avenues behind Drag Race. Tempest talked a little bit about this, about how, you know, when other, smaller, albeit drag performers and avenues for expression came on the scene, like the Blue Blade Brothers Dragula she was like, oh, thank God. Something that isn’t Drag Race, like other avenues for experiencing drag, are becoming more popular, especially because of the type of drag that Drag Race has elevated to being this archetype of drag. And so I think, again, to bring it back to the minion memes, those two camps are one day going to meet, and it’s going to be a beautiful coming together of people who might have different ideas on what the minions mean to them, but it’s going to lead to a broader change within the Despicable Me universe and the Drag Race universe as a whole. 

Sam Now that we’ve talked about the awful exploitation and detriments caused by the corporatization of drag, what can we do about it? How can we, as members of the public, help queens combat the unethical, harmful practices that have persisted through these practices? 

Grayce That is such a good question. I think the first, like Lady Bunny mentions is to support your local drag queens. Go out. Go to the tiny gay bars. If you’re an ally, go to these shows for smaller queens. Give them your money directly. Give them your doll hairs. Support the girls. I think also going out of your way. If you’re not able to go to these shows, in person, you can go and watch some of these lesser known queens online. Whatever you can do to cut out the middleman between you and the performer is really, I think, what is going to be the best way for you to support some of these girls? And you know, when you’re making your your daily shopping decisions, what kind of makeup should I buy? What kind of paper towels should I buy? Hey, support your local drag queen. If she’s selling reusable, handmade artisan paper towels, go and buy some paper towels from her. Go and buy your makeup from Trixie Cosmetics.Do whatever you can to get more money to the places that you know where it’s going and where you want it to go, instead of going to the faceless individuals behind Drag Race and Paramount Plus. 

Sam  I love that. And so not only thinking about what people should do, but where can people go to learn more, more about, like the queens that you talk about in this piece, your favorite queens. Anything you think anyone should know? I mean, you have a wealth of knowledge about drag very clearly, based on this episode in Drag Race. And we need to know where do we get the information that we need. 

Grayce Thanks for asking, Sam. I always love when people ask me questions about what I think because I love take app. first recommendation is my article on The Flaw. How to write that as, a class requirement. But, you know, somewhere along the line it became so much more than that. And I would be thrilled to share that with the world. I think another place you can go is support any of the queens that took the time to chat with me. I’m talking Tammy Brown. I am talking Tempest du jour. I’m talking about ben de la creme, and I am talking to the incomparable Lady Bunny. If you want to wake up, you go to Lady Bunny’s Instagram, okay? Because she might be a drag queen, but she is also a 50 year old man and she posts like it. Okay? She is like, if my dad woke up. So if you want to learn a little bit, go to, their Instagrams, their TikToks, chat with them, go out of your way to support them. And I think something that I would love everyone to know is. By Ginger Menges cookbook, because that thing goes off and it does not have any business going as hard as it does. But that cookbook has some absolutely iconic recipes in it. And you look at Ginger and you’re like, yeah, she’s a little heavy, but like, maybe she’s good at cooking too. And she is, she is so good and supported by by her cookbook. 

Sam You’ve honestly sold me. I am a meal prep girl. I love to look for recipes. I’m game. But I hate to say this. It seems like we have reached our time today. I have a thousand more questions in my head, but I don’t know if I ever want to sit through them for the rest of the day. Grace, thank you so much for joining us. For school. We are so happy to talk with you. Not only about drag, drag race the highs and lows of law school, but really anything else that comes into your head. Because I feel like whatever you just say, I just find myself laughing with you, not at you. And I love it so much. So thank you for being on episode. 

Grayce Thank you all for having me. Happy to talk any time. 

Pragnya Grayce. I also want to just say thank you for a wonderful conversation. I feel like there’s so many different aspects of this topic, from the benefits to the abuse, and we are so incredibly grateful for you for raising awareness of this topic. 

Sam And thank you Pragnya for being a great co-host. Your questions I feel like have just been incredibly thoughtful and it’s just been such a pleasure to talk with you as well today. 

Pragnya Of course. Sam, I feel like you’re so well-spoken. You are an amazing, amazing person. And I’m so grateful I got to do this with you. If you’re interested in reading Grace’s full article or learning more about the flaws in our legal system, go check out The Flaw magazine at The Flaw. 

Sam And if you enjoyed this episode, which if you made it this far, I hope you did, because otherwise I don’t know why you’re so listening. First, just make sure to check out the show notes. I know we’re gonna put some links in to some of the amazing queens that I’ve been discuss today, but some other resources as well. And make sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can also check out Law School .org for more amazing content. Thank you all for listening and letting us talk at you today, and looking forward to doing that some more. And a special thanks to Mirei for helping us out and being an amazing technical director and pretty much running the show behind the scenes. 

Sam And with that class is officially dismissed.

Grayce Burns

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