Legal Education's Little Secret

[F]law School Episode 4: Public Interest Propaganda

Peering behind the public interest curtain

Frank Obermeyer

October 12, 2024

Summary:

In this episode of [F]law School, hosts Sam Perri and Reya Singh chat with author Frank Obermeyer about his recent article, Harvard Law School’s Graduation Propaganda. Their conversation uncovers the numbers behind Harvard Law’s public interest rhetoric, explores  some of the institutional and structural sources of students’ career drift toward BigLaw, and offers a candid  assessment of the chasm between Harvard Law School’s messaging and the reality of its students’ general career trajectories.

Guest Bio:

Frank Obermeyer is a member of the Harvard Law Class of 2025. He loves to cook, run, and play music. Check him out on Spotify!

Editors: 

Special thanks to Shyun Moon and Mirei Saneyoshi for production and editing assistance and Heer Singh and Pragnya Vella for Social Media assistance.

[F]law Links: 

Additional Links: 

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Episode Transcript

 (This transcript was created by an automated process and contains errors.)

Sam Perri Hey, welcome to Floor School, a podcast that explores the flaws in our legal system. We’re today’s hosts. I’m Sam, I’m a public defender. I graduated from Harvard Law School in May of 2023 and happy to be here. 

Reya Singh And I’m Reya Singh. I am a second year undergraduate student at the Ohio State University, and I am so excited to be here. 

Reya Every two weeks, we interview law students to uncover the role of corporate actors in producing many of our most urgent social problems, and the troubling tale of corporate actors shaping, bending, capturing, and breaking the law in their favor. In this episode, we’ll be discussing Harvard Law graduation messaging. 

Sam Today we’re joined by Frank Obermeyer, a 3L from Dayton, Ohio. Frank is going into big law after graduation, and he wrote a really interesting article about public interest messaging. At Harvard Law School and the drift towards big law. We’re so excited to talk with him. Welcome to FLaw School, Frank. Class is in session. 

Sam Thanks for having me. 

Sam Okay, so this is one of my dream podcast topics. But to orient listeners to our conversation, can you share with us what brought you to this topic in the first place? Like, how did your background and experience at HLS factor into you being drawn to this topic? 

Frank Obermeyer Yeah, so I’m a member of the Harvard Legal Aid Bureau. It’s a two year clinic here at Harvard. Clinics are like, academic credit for doing real practical legal work. And clinical work has been about half of my, time at Harvard has been spent doing clinical work. So for me, like, I’m steeped in this kind of public interest space, doing work for real clients who can’t afford lawyers. And during my two year, Harvard started posting on its Instagram, clinic in a minute sessions where they would interview students in, different clinics across the, university. And I was watching these videos of my friends and colleagues and classmates talking about their clinics and wondering, well, one, I was very thankful that, these clinics were being highlighted and my friends were getting kind of the credit they deserve. But also I started to wonder, like, Who are these posts for? Are they for highlighting the clinics? Are they for prospective students? Are they maybe just for the general public to see how good Harvard is as an institution? So, you know, I started thinking more deeply about how Harvard talks about clinical work. And I was comparing that my experience as a clinical student, thinking about, you know, how well I felt supported in the role, etc.. And that’s kind of what led me to this topic. 

Reya  Reading the article, I really had the perspective of someone in undergrad who always hears about the prestige and opportunities that come with attending a school like Harvard Law School. And your article highlights a stark contrast between the public interest rhetoric and the actual career outcomes of graduates. How did this realization affect your experiences of legal education? 

Frank Yeah. So I think you’re 100% right that going to an institution like Harvard does come with a lot of privilege and esteem. So like that hasn’t changed, I think. What? What that prestige actually comes from, is what, like the root cause of that prestige is what changed from writing this article. So in my mind, I started to see the prestige of Harvard partially as a exercise of posturing. I do think the benefits of going to Harvard are there, you know, regardless of where that prestige comes from. But the the source of that prestige maybe isn’t quite what I thought it was, which was I used to think, you know, Harvard is creating the leaders of society. And  while that is, you know, oftentimes true if you look at the Supreme Court or, you know, some of our presidents, maybe the reason that they get there is not necessarily because they are public service minded. It might be because they are, more connected with powerful folks across the United States. So, yeah, I think The prestige is still there. It’s just the source of it and maybe some of the background happenings. That’s what changed in my mind. 

Reya Your article also mentions how some students come to Harvard Law with a specific passion for public interest, only to face the reality of student debt and the lure of high paying corporate jobs. So what do you think can be done at the undergraduate level to better prepare students for these challenges? 

Frank Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up, Reya, because just to kind of put some numbers to it. Yeah. The average law school Harvard law graduate leaves with about $170,000 in debt. And many other students in The Flaw have written about kind of what this debt load. The effects of this, what it has on students. Rosie Kaur’s article on, Big Law’s Capture of Students of Color is a really good example of it. I think when I, when I think about what a student can do to prepare themselves for this, I think it’s realizing that, taking on a certain amount of debt will maybe limit your field of view as as to what jobs are attainable for you, or even possible. So, if you look at Yale Law School’s like Public Interest FAQ page, one of the FAQ questions on there is, literally, “can I survive on a public interest salary?” A public interest salary is like $60,000. That’s the median income in America. Like, certainly you can survive. In fact, you’re going to be doing better than half of Americans on that salary. But it’s all about kind of, framing of the issue. When you do take on that debt and you see people around you getting jobs that pay over $200,000 in base salary, your field of reference is going to change a little bit. So I think students just need to be aware of that. And maybe if that’s not a if that’s not a system they want to enter where they’re going to be incentivized to take actions that they maybe don’t think are aligned with their sense of self. Then maybe they should consider going to a school that’s going to relieve some of that debt burden. This is not me saying you shouldn’t go to Harvard Law. Obviously, that’s a little hypocritical of me. I’ve had a wonderful time here. But, you know, I think being fully aware of what’s going to happen when you get here is really important. 

Sam I think that’s such a great point. As someone who did go to Harvard Law School and is now in public interest, I definitely felt that messaging surrounding me the whole time. It was the era of like, you know, is this. Is this feasible? Can you actually, like, live on this salary? I will say, though, that like Harvard does have a great low interest protection program. If you make under $70,000 a year, they do factor in assets, so that could change. But generally speaking, you don’t have to pay anything towards your monthly loan payments. So like for me that’s great. But anyway, kind of moving past that before I talked with. 

Frank Sam, if I might, can I just plug one more article that’s worth on that? Vinny Byju wrote a really cool article about this, also in The Flaw  that I’d want to, highlight. It’s called Harvard’s. I don’t know what actually what it’s called, but it mentions Harvard’s institutional thumb on the scale. But part of his argument is that going into public interest is not as unsustainable or impractical as people think it is. And he, I think, in part asks us to reckon that we are making a, moral decision that we’re kind of hiding, as a, systemic, you know, we’re forced to go into big law to pay off these loans, when in reality you could live off of your public interest salary. You’re just choosing not to. So I just want to plug that. 

Sam Yeah, I know, that’s a great piece. Also, Vinny did work in my office this summer at the Public Defender. So, shout out Vinny. 

But I do, just because we started to dive really into the article and some points made in it, I do want to take a step back and just assume that not all of our listeners have read the article. And really just want to have a moment where you can kind of just outline the piece for us, kind of the basic messaging points that really get into, some of the key sorts of, you know, interview conversations you’ve had or like pieces of data or information that you think are important for listeners to know. Before we just dive a little bit deeper into, different aspects of the piece. 

Frank Sure. So the piece is broadly about Harvard Law’s messaging to students and to the public versus the reality of where Harvard students actually go when they graduate. So specifically, it looks at Harvard’s graduation messaging. So as Harvard Law prepares for graduation in May for about a month, maybe a month and a half, they are posting about student leaders who are graduating. They’re posting about where those students are going, after they graduate. So for about a month and a half before graduation in May, Harvard is posting about students who are going to be graduating. They’re posting about the successes of the class year. They’re doing all this messaging to talk about the graduates. And if you actually, like, look into those posts, you’ll find that most of them and are talking about public service related work. It’s a disproportionate amount compared to where students actually go in their graduating. So, for example, I looked at the class of 2023 messaging leading up to graduation, and I think it was roughly 44%. So let’s call it. About half of the students featured were talking about their future careers in public service related fields, whether it’s public defense, working for the government, etc. In reality, 12% of that class that wasn’t going to clerkships are working in public interest jobs. So when you think about like 50% versus 12%, okay, maybe they’re just trying to highlight more, a broader range of careers. But that’s a pretty distinct difference. And if you just watch the messaging or if you just went to the graduation, you might get a, I would say incorrect at best, or misleading, at worst, picture of where Harvard graduates actually go.

Just to throw in a few other like, statistics that I found from my work. You know, there’s like, I think nine community awards that go out at graduation. Five of them go to or it’s either 4 or 5 go to public interest related work. That’s about half. So, you know, as you look at these — these call outs that happen at graduation and leading up to it — they’re mostly focused on public interest work, whereas for every one student who goes into public interest, six go to work for big law firms. And when I say big law firms, I mean law firms with, you know, hundreds of lawyers that primarily serve corporations or very wealthy individuals. So that’s what the whole article is about. This all is occurring while Harvard’s clinical faculty.

So, there’s two types of professors at Harvard. There’s, podium faculty, which is kind of the more traditional idea of a professor, like maybe Jon Hanson, who, you know, talk to classes, they, lecture, they do research, they publish law journal articles, etc. they maybe write textbooks. That’s kind of what we would refer to as a podium faculty. And then there’s clinical fact faculty. These are practitioners who instruct students in academic clinics. They’re mostly functioning as a practical guide to the students. And they offer a very unique, and I would say, important part of a law school experience, which is teaching students how to be a lawyer, not necessarily teaching them, doctrinal law. So podium faculty get all the benefits that, you know, of a faculty. They have tenure tracks, etc. Clinical faculty, live kind of a very different career life style. They’re generally paid less. There’s less opportunities for progression.

Anyway, all of those differences have led those clinical faculty members to vote 95% in favor of unionizing this past year. So, all of this talk about the value of public interest, the value of clinics is going on with a background of what one clinical professor called, disinvestment. So, this is all happening while the people who are actually allowing the students to do great public interest work are being mistreated. And then just lastly to cover one other piece of the article. Harvard has long been criticized for sending people to the corporate bar. As far back as 1905, Louis Brandeis was talking kind of generally about lawyers, but he was speaking at a Harvard Ethics Society event. He talked about how, we too often hear about the corporate lawyer and not enough about the people’s lawyer. Ralph Nader called it the endemic malaise of lawyers. He said 90% of them serve 10% of the people. Jimmy Carter has talked about this, in other speeches, pretty much the same sentiment. And then even as kind of recent as, you know, the 90s and into the 2000, people like Robert Granfield have talked about how Harvard pushes kind of elite lawyers towards corporate law. Pete Davis wrote a phenomenal piece called Our Bicentennial Crisis about how Harvard pushes students towards corporate law and away from the public interest. So this is kind of been going on for a long time. And my point is that it’s still happening today. We are just, maybe being deceived into thinking it’s not. Sorry. Long, long. Synopsis. 

Reya Frank, that was wonderful. And I have to say, I love how you are just so deeply aware and supportive of including all of the other amazing work that your peers have done. I think one of the things I liked about your article was that you interviewed a lot of different people. And you included a lot of different perspectives. So would you mind talking about who you interviewed? 

Frank So I mostly interviewed people that I had access to, so I actually lucked out. You know, I’m a member of the Harvard Legal Aid Bureau. So I was able to interview the outgoing president, Travis Gabel, to talk about his experience in clinics. I spoke to the now former lead of HLAB’s clinic. I think she’s called the executive director. Esmé Caramello. Who’s now on sabbatical, to work for the government. And then I lucked out. You know, I read an article about the union vote, and it featured a quote from Rebecca Greening, who’s the clinical instructor that I interviewed pretty heavily. She was wonderful in giving me insights into kind of what led to that unionization vote? And then I also lucked out. Another student, David Britto, interviewed Ralph Nader and Bruce Fein and asked their permission to share the transcript with other students. So I got to benefit from a lot of other people’s work. But yeah, through that hodgepodge of interviews and borrowed transcripts, I put together the article. 

Sam Awesome. I mean, I was amazed by how many people you spoke with or incorporate into your piece. I thought it was awesome. Now I want to kind of really dive deep for a second, kind of talk more about the corporate structure of Harvard, if you’re up for it. So Harvard, I like to think of as, like the quintessential corporation, fondly known as the President and Fellows of Harvard College, when it doesn’t want to really call itself a corporation, like in many promotional emails that they send out. So kind of what we’ve touched on briefly, and I know we’re going to talk more about graduation in a bit, but so when Harvard sends out this messaging in places like graduation in promotional messaging and emails, when they send out postcards to you saying, please send us more money, they really are giving this idea that we really care about public interest and so do our graduates. And that makes its huge endowment more palatable, I think. However, the way Harvard is internally structured, kind of in ways you were previously talking about with clinical faculty, says otherwise. I guess I’m wondering, do you think that we can look at the structures and messaging that Harvard puts out there as really an example of what corporations across the world are doing? Or would you say that Harvard is unique in, its work as a corporation, particularly due to its endowment and status? 

Frank It’s a very cool question. Like, yes, I think Harvard in many ways is doing like a form of  messaging that’s similar to like greenwashing campaigns — call it like P.I. washing, whatever you want to call it. And I don’t think it’s lying. I don’t think Harvard is lying at all. I think they’re doing what a lot of people might do on their dating profile, which is highlighting their best qualities and not laying out their baggage for people like, I would probably do the same if I was planning Harvard’s graduation ceremony. I would probably want to highlight my friends that I think are doing good work for the community. So I don’t necessarily think it’s nefarious all the way down. I do think that Harvard can almost get away with much more because it’s not seen as a profit seeking institution in the way that like Chevron is or, you know, Google. So. I guess my takeaway is that, yes, like Harvard, just like any other institution in America, is going to be marketing itself in a way that suits its interests. I think Harvard has a longer leash than maybe a corporation does, because it’s seen primarily by outsiders as a university, as a kind of an American institution, more so than a capitalist institution. And I think the more you see that those things are similar, the better off you are. So if we assume that kind of any corporation or business or university, when they show us a message, just assume they’re trying to catfish you a little bit, I think that’s probably a healthy way to go about your life. 

Sam I love that. I love the way you explain that. And I do want to kind of touch a little bit more on the educational component of the Harvard Corporation, particularly talking about graduation, which I experienced last year. I remember going to graduation with my family and seeing their reactions to all this messaging, all this language about how many graduates are going into public interest work. And just like they seemed amazed by it. I also felt to me is because I did not expect so much talk from Harvard about public interest work at graduation. I honestly felt a bit gaslit during graduation. And I even remember going to the public interest reception after graduation. There are a handful more than a handful of receptions after graduation, like different clinics put on receptions, different organizations. And the Public Interest Advising office did. So, and, you know, going there, I was like, well, there must be so many people going to this because of how many people are actually going into public interest, which is beyond my belief, given my experience at Harvard Law School. And I saw that there were not a ton of people at the reception. And you know what? Naysayers might say that they were bouncing around different receptions. They were going to get there at some point. But I still think there’s a point to it. And kind of that experience really made me think about how Harvard’s whole shtick, how its bit about public interest work during graduation kind of seemed like a legitimacy move. And by that I mean, like Harvard putting itself out there is like, look at, well, what all of our graduates are doing. Look at this important work that they’re doing. And in turn, people might view them as more legitimate of like, yeah, they are this really prestigious institution that’s doing a lot of good work, and we should continue to see them doing that. I guess I’m wondering. Do you. Do you see it that way? I mean, I know you haven’t graduated yet, so you haven’t had your own personal graduation experience. Do you think that messaging is more Harvard trying to maintain this helpful public image, this legitimate view or more of a move to get more donations or really something else? I mean, there could be a lot of things to say about this, I’m sure. So I know I just threw you a huge question, and I hope you run with it. 

Frank No, I, I really appreciate, your perspective, Sam, because I have never been to a Harvard law graduation. I’ve only seen them on YouTube. So, you know, hearing you, your perspective kind of validates some of my assumptions of what people would leave the law school graduation with. I think I even mentioned in my article, like, if you just went to the Harvard Law graduation, you might think exactly what some of the things your parents said were. So I’m glad that it was actually true, because that was a guess. But yeah, I, I, I see it as a lot of things, like one like I think I mentioned this, but, you know, I don’t necessarily think there is someone saying, you know, “we need to mislead the public and make them think X, Y, and Z about Harvard.”

I think it’s human nature to highlight your best features before the public. So the positive spin is, you know, they probably have someone in the dean of students office or maybe the external relations department whose job it is, is to make Harvard look good and they’re doing their job. So, like at a certain point, you know, you think this is probably the graduation that I would plan if I was put in charge of planning Harvard’s graduation, I would say, “Okay, Who are, like, the best of us that we should highlight? Oh, the people that have done 2000 hours of pro bono work.” Yeah. Okay. Give that person an award. Like, certainly. Woudl I want the graduation to be like the student who gave most hours to their big last summer internship last summer. No, like we would laugh at that, right? So, like, at a certain point, it’s just ridiculous to think of the graduation as being anything other than what it is. Right? However, you could also see, like the graduation ceremony as Harvard’s like, annual, you know, report, in the same way that a corporation has an annual report. And I know Harvard has one. I think the university puts one out every year. But for the law school, I mean, this is them showing the stakeholders out there, both the kind of board, donors, parents who are footing the bill for a lot of the classmates. I think you could see that as their shareholder meeting or their annual report, and they’re going to show off their best features to get more investment, to tell each students little, you know, siblings to come to Harvard Law, etc. So I think, you know, I’m open to seeing it both ways. I could be persuaded that both are happening. I think, honestly, both are happening. I think it’s a mix of people making kind of natural decisions about what a graduation is supposed to be, but also not wanting to intentionally share the statistics about where the students are going. So I don’t I don’t know if that answers your question, but that’s how I think about the graduation ceremony now. 

Sam It does answer my question. Thank you so much, I loved that. 

Reya Frank, kind of like coming off of what you were talking about earlier and something your article really touches on is the, you know, idea of these Harvard Law students going into big law. But my question for you is, isn’t there an aspect of student choice here? Are they not the ones choosing to go into big law? 

Frank You’re hundred percent right. And coming from someone who is choosing to go into big law like I do not absolve myself from my decision to go there. I think in many ways, Harvard benefits from that idea of saying, well, we don’t choose where our students go. The students are independent actors. But, you know, as many people have mentioned in other [F]law articles and just generally, I mean, Harvard does help create the set of incentives that students come into law school and experience. So while, yes, like these are individual actors making decisions, they’re making decisions in a system that, you know makes Big Law the default option, as some writers have argued. And a system that puts them in a bunch of debt, as we see from the 170 K, average debt. So I think it’s I think it’s both. Yes. These are independent decisions, but Harvard plays a role in creating the system of incentives in which those decisions are made. 

In many ways, this piece was also like a self-reflection. I think as someone who is steeped in Harvard’s clinical and like public interest work, spending a lot of time with folks who are going to be public defenders, who have very strong opinions about, working for Big Law. I think a lot of this was my looking at Harvard and seeing myself a bit and wondering, you know, how can I make sense of this? You know, why does why do I when someone asks me like, what kind of law I’m interested in, talk about my clinical work and not about where I’ll be working when I graduate. So I think a lot of this is a self-reflection, stuff that I haven’t fully thought out or understood. But if you if you’re reading this article and you’re thinking, this guy needs to talk to his therapist, that’s probably why. 

Sam Amazing. I love that I feel like I say that to everything you’ve been saying, but I do feel that way. I want that to be clear. Looking ahead, what gives you hope for the future of legal education and public interest law? And I guess, what role do you see for students in driving that change? 

Frank I think Harvard has, you know, for all of the criticism that my article seems to be giving, Harvard has been a leader in clinical work since the beginning. I mean, Harvard was one of the first major law school to, hire, you know, Bellow and Charn, two professors  who really kickstarted Harvard’s clinical program. It kind of became at least Harvard. This is from you know, a lot of this information comes from Harvard material that I’ve read. But, you know, that became kind of the blueprint for a lot of clinical programs. So I do think Harvard has tended to be a leader here. And things do seem to have gotten better over time, like Harvard offers 25 clinics. Like, I think people are talking about this enough to where we are seeing improvement on the numbers every year. It’s it’s very slow, though. So I think that’s the first thing I, I don’t want to think that Harvard’s like actively against this. I think they are trying to be better at this. They want to be better at it.

What gives me hope is that, I think more students coming into law school are being made aware of this. You know, There’s things at Harvard that are going on now where students are leading the charge to kind of reframe what law school is. There’s the one out of disorientation, something I’m not affiliated with and don’t know enough to speak on,  but it’s where student leaders are talking about all this stuff that is, you know, left out of the 1L curriculum. There are students bringing in speakers to talk about, you know, what isn’t mentioned in contracts and to give a more kind of liberal or progressive or, you know, anti-corporate perspective, maybe on what, the 1L curriculum teaches. So I think there’s a lot of student leadership here. I think we’re also seeing kind of broadly across the United States, more, more young people trying to, you know, be less of a consumer and be more intentional about, like how they both are involved in and benefit from structure. So my hope is that people learn more from TikTok than they are just like bored or distracted by. And that leads to more students kind of demanding this kind of stuff or taking it into their own hands. But, yeah, I, you know, that’s my amorphous hope for the future of law school education. But, you know, we have, Reya and some other young, you know, pre-law students, working on this podcast, so that gives me a lot of hope, too.

Reya Thank you, Frank. I really, really appreciate that. I guess to close off, you talk a lot about your peers’ articles and, you know, just other people who have written about topics similar to this one. But if someone wants to learn more about your specific article, where where can they look for it? 

Frank Yeah. So I would say poke around The [F]law. So if you start with my article, I think I link to a few other [F]law articles that I think are great. But if you want kind of bigger readings, Our Bicentennial Crisis by Pete Davis is amazing. Making Elite Lawyers by Robert Granfield. It’s an older book. It’s from the 90s, but. I mean, he he’s essentially laying out the same the same things that we’re talking about today. You can draw a line from what Brandeis was talking about to Robert Granfield  to Pete Davis to like, you know, my article is living in the shadow of those great pieces, I will say about Our Bicentennial Crisis, I’ve never read the book, but, Pete, very helpfully spark noted it himself on his website. So if you’re like me and, you know, have a lot of stuff on your to read list, poking around in his, website, he did that work for you, which is very generous of him. Yeah. So I would I would read those, I, you know, take Hanson’s Corporations class. 

Reya Frank, I know I said that we were, you know, closing out, but is there anything else that you wanted to add about this article and its importance to you? 

Sam Yes. So in 1905, Louis Brandeis offered a warning to the Harvard Ethical Society. He said, we hear too much about the corporate lawyer and far too little about the people’s lawyer. And I think that is a helpful quote to have in mind. Harvard has certainly heeded part of that quote. We don’t hear about the corporate lawyer anymore. If you look at graduation, if you look at the messaging, all we hear about is the people’s lawyer. I think the issue is that the statistics much favor the corporate lawyer over the people’s lawyer. And I think while Harvard did heed Brandeis in a way, they didn’t follow the spirit of, what he was trying to get at. So that’s the last thing I would add. 

Sam Beautiful. That is all the time we have for today. Frank, thank you so much for joining us on Flaw School. Loved love  love your piece, Harvard’s Graduation Propaganda. We are so happy to talk more about this with you any day. I personally would love to hear your experience at a Harvard graduation, after you graduate, maybe we can have that, like, episode a year out where we talk about this again. But it was definitely a pleasure. 

Frank Thank you so much for having me. It was great speaking with you all. 

Reya I also want to say thank you for a wonderful conversation. I have to say, it was super, super insightful. Even as someone in undergrad. I just appreciate the fact I’m able to know what I might be stepping into in a couple of years. And I think you have a very great way of delivering the truth while also, supporting and cheering on, you know, the faculty and your peers at Harvard Law School who are doing great things. Just being very honest about what actually goes on behind the closed doors. 

Sam And Reya, thank you for being such a great co-host. I love chatting with you. I love especially talking about topics related to Harvard and  law school with you. I think your perspective is so fresh and insightful and especially from an undergraduate point of view. Just wonderful. So such a joy to be talking with you on the podcast again. 

Reya Thank you. Sam. I love and adore you, and I’m so honored. It’s my second podcast that I get to co-host with you, hopefully many more in the future. But for everyone else, if you’re interested in reading Frank’s full article or learning more about the flaws in our legal system, check out The [F]law magazine at theflaw.org. 

Sam And if you enjoyed this episode in particular, first make sure to check out the show notes will be a lot of interesting information and links in there. And make sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can also check out flawschool.org for more content. Thank you all for listening. Looking forward to talking with you, but more accurately at you in the future. And class is dismissed. 

Frank Obermeyer

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